Go Back   tbirdforum.com > Thunderbird Model Years > Flair Birds [1964-1966]

Flair Birds [1964-1966] You have a Fourth Generation Bird or just have some questions about them? Then this forum is for you, check it out.

Ignition problem

This is a discussion on Ignition problem within the Flair Birds [1964-1966] forums, part of the Thunderbird Model Years category; Hi folks, I recently had a new wiring harness made for my 65 Special Landau with safety package. Apparently, the ...

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)   IP: 67.236.203.71
Old 06-22-2016, 10:42 PM
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Franklin,IN
Posts: 5
Rep Power: 0
Erbleding is on a distinguished road
Garage
Ignition problem

Hi folks, I recently had a new wiring harness made for my 65 Special Landau with safety package. Apparently, the people who made the harness did not have all of the proper connectors, which has thrown me into confusion. I gave an Osborn Electrical manual, but it's very hard to read. They gave me a connector with two blue/red wires for the safety neutral switch, but there are four prongs. What are the colors of the other two wires? Also, are the wires to the stop light switch green and green with red stripe? Finally, when I turn the key on the switch, which is dangling down right now, the engine fires, but when I turn lose of the key, the engine quits. Could this be because the switch is not grounded to the dash? The resister wire is brand new. Please help
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)   IP: 71.80.229.90
Old 06-23-2016, 10:49 AM
Steve Seebart
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Sunnyvale, California
Posts: 72
Rep Power: 13
sseebart is on a distinguished road
Garage
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erbleding View Post
Hi folks, I recently had a new wiring harness made for my 65 Special Landau with safety package. Apparently, the people who made the harness did not have all of the proper connectors, which has thrown me into confusion. I gave an Osborn Electrical manual, but it's very hard to read. They gave me a connector with two blue/red wires for the safety neutral switch, but there are four prongs. What are the colors of the other two wires? Also, are the wires to the stop light switch green and green with red stripe? Finally, when I turn the key on the switch, which is dangling down right now, the engine fires, but when I turn lose of the key, the engine quits. Could this be because the switch is not grounded to the dash? The resister wire is brand new. Please help
Sounds like you have multiple issues here, most of them difficult to diagnose from a distance. The Osborn manuals--with a strong magnifying glass--will give the the proper wire colors. (Assuming the new kit follows factory spec, which may not be the case.)

I can't speak to the NSS, as my 64 may be wired differently from yours, but when I rewired a 62 F-100 a while back, I had two wires reversed on the ignition switch and experienced the same condition you've got. Were it me, I'd be on the phone with the manufacturer asking for advice and possibly a refund.

~Steve
__________________
My T-Bird Blog
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)   IP: 174.113.130.73
Old 06-23-2016, 11:49 AM
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 147
Rep Power: 20
Terry64HT is on a distinguished road
All 4 prongs on the neutral safety switch are used. There are 2 red/blue, one to the ignition switch and the other to the starter relay. These go on one set of prongs.
There should also be 2 whites, one going to the door ajar switch and the other to the windshield washer switch. There is also a black/red that goes to fuse panel, these are all on the third prong (part of the second pair). The last prong has a black/red that goes to the back up lights (the back up switch is built into the neutral safety switch).
The two wires to the stop switch are green and green with a red stripe.
I took this information from the diagrams in the 65 service manual as well as the composite diagrams in a Nick's Thunderbird catalog from 2001. I understand Nick is retired, but his old catalogs are a treasure house of information. If anyone knows of a way to get permission to post them, let me know.
Terry
64HT
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)   IP: 67.236.203.71
Old 06-25-2016, 10:56 AM
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Franklin,IN
Posts: 5
Rep Power: 0
Erbleding is on a distinguished road
Garage
Thank you

Thanks Terry,

I found the problem. There was a stand alone green/red wire coming from the ignition switch. I had it plugged into the wrong place and the engine now starts and keeps running. That's the good news. The bad news is that the brake lights, window motors, blower motor, two of the gauge lights do not work. Plus there's smoke coming from behind the dash around the area of the front speaker when the engine us started I'm sure I have something plugged into the wrong thing or there is a short. I think I'm going to pack it up and take it to a professional before I catch the car and my garage on fire.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)   IP: 174.113.130.73
Old 06-25-2016, 11:09 AM
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 147
Rep Power: 20
Terry64HT is on a distinguished road
Good news about the ignition switch. Not so good about the smoke. Thare is almost a certainty that it is the ammeter. Ford, in their wisdom fed most of the output of the alternator through the ammeter, although the 65's were not as bad as the 64's. Be very careful running the engine until you get it sorted out to some extent. You can remove the front of the gauge to get an idea if the problem is there.
Do you have any wiring schematics other than the Osborne? The ones in the back of the shop manual are a lot better.
Terry
64HT
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)   IP: 67.236.203.71
Old 06-25-2016, 04:57 PM
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Franklin,IN
Posts: 5
Rep Power: 0
Erbleding is on a distinguished road
Garage
I was thinking they made a fix to that amp meter in 65', but maybe not since the wiring I took out had also gotten hot. At this point, I feel like I should accept the fact that I am not an auto electric guy and flat bed the car to an expert. Plus now the car has gone back to not running when the key is released. Grrr
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)   IP: 174.113.130.73
Old 06-29-2016, 10:18 AM
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 147
Rep Power: 20
Terry64HT is on a distinguished road
They did improve the wiring through the ammeter after 1964, but my understanding is that it did not completely solve the problem. The connectors through the firewall were also prone to corrosion and overheating.
Terry
64HT
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)   IP: 67.236.203.71
Old 07-23-2016, 03:55 PM
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Franklin,IN
Posts: 5
Rep Power: 0
Erbleding is on a distinguished road
Garage
Update. Well after sending my car to two different so called Auto Electric shops and having them both hot wire the car and tell me it's fixed, I and a friend started trying to figure out what is going on ourselves. The car currently runs, but only if you jump the positive side of the coil to the voltage regulator. Basically bypassing the starter solenoid. So we disconnected the jump wire and connected the correct wire from the solenoid to the coil. The moment we did that, the voltage dropped to 7 volts. Then we decided to test the red with green stripe wire that shares a post on the solenoid with the coil wire. The wire on the other post is red with blue stripe. When we unplugged the red/green wire from the solenoid and tested it at the other end, we got nothing, but we we tested at on end on the red/green wire and the other end with the red/blue wire, we got voltage. So now I'm thinking that the pins got crossed at the firewall junction connector when they made the harness. Nope, it's just how it should be. What would cause the ignition to drop voltage when the coil is connected?
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)   IP: 98.127.194.125
Old 07-24-2016, 07:50 AM
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 129
Rep Power: 15
HeadacheGuy is on a distinguished road
Garage
There is a resistance wire coming off your ignition switch which drops voltage to the coil for 2 purposes. One was to protect the points from arcing (the biggest reason) and two, was to keep the coil from overheating by design. The starter solenoid is designed to provided cranking voltage directly to the coil during start and when the key is released the resistor takes over. When you measure unloaded voltage it will look normal, when you load the circuit such as connecting the coil voltage drop occurs. If you still have points, they are probably closed when you are getting the voltage drop by hooking up the coil. If you have a pertronics ignition it grounds the coil until it senses distributor rotation which also gives you the drop (which is why you don't want to leave your key without it running. On mine the coil will overheat and it won't start till it cools down for about 10 minutes). In a shorter answer, the condition is normal. When you get it running charging voltage is higher and you will have a running voltage of 9 - 11 volts at the positive of the coil.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)   IP: 67.236.213.171
Old 07-24-2016, 04:21 PM
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Franklin,IN
Posts: 5
Rep Power: 0
Erbleding is on a distinguished road
Garage
The strange thing is that the car will fire, but once the key is released, the engine dies, so it sounds like the solenoid that is supposed to send full charge to the coil when the engine is running is failing. So I installed a brand new solenoid and it does the same thing. I actually had the car running, but then it stopped. I don't remember changing anything
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)   IP: 98.127.194.125
Old 07-24-2016, 05:40 PM
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 129
Rep Power: 15
HeadacheGuy is on a distinguished road
Garage
You are correct about it firing from the solenoid when cranking. It does this off the second small wire on the posts. The no run afterward means you are losing power on the resistance wire from the ignition switch out to the coil. On mine the resistanse wire is connected to the ignition switch and is probable about 10 inches long and breaks to regular wire out to the coil. Mine gave up at a bullet connector that someone added right after the wire. Best choices here are the ignition switch is bad, connecter at the reistance wire has given up or a gang plug connector at the firewall. Take a test light and chase it from the ignition switch out and you will find this a simple problem by elimination. I should have asked though, is it points or a pertronics system? You may still have a connection to the coil but if the voltage drop is too high neither system likes that. Even a mildly shorted coil may fire with solenoid bypass voltage and drop out when lowered across the resistance wire. If points too close of a gap may get a screwed up saturation time with lower voltage.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)   IP: 98.127.194.125
Old 07-24-2016, 05:55 PM
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Posts: 129
Rep Power: 15
HeadacheGuy is on a distinguished road
Garage
I should have added if you use a volt meter to check for voltage drop to the coil that the key needs to be on with the system loaded to test where any drop occurs. Testing a complete open circuit will tell you where total lose of continuity but if the system has some continuity (too much resistance but still making a complete circuit) the system has to have a load on it for the voltage drop test to be accurate. By loaded I mean a either the negative side of the coil must be grounded by the points or pertronics OR you can ground the coil for the duration of the test but I don't recommend doing it for more than a few minutes at a time as the coil will overheat if decent voltage is getting to it. Loaded your 7 volts may be a tad low but not by much. The idea is that once the charging system takes over and the coil is pulsing your average voltage across the resistance wire with the engine running will probably be around 10 - 11 volts (measured at the posiitve post of the coil). I am sorry about the quality of repair from your auto electric shops. Gives my business a black eye. You need to find an old guy like me who started life on these systems. If I had your car in front of me this would be a 15 minute diagnosis.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)   IP: 72.201.27.209
Old 06-20-2017, 07:44 PM
 
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 13
Rep Power: 0
arizman2 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erbleding View Post
Hi folks, I recently had a new wiring harness made for my 65 Special Landau with safety package. Apparently, the people who made the harness did not have all of the proper connectors, which has thrown me into confusion. I gave an Osborn Electrical manual, but it's very hard to read. They gave me a connector with two blue/red wires for the safety neutral switch, but there are four prongs. What are the colors of the other two wires? Also, are the wires to the stop light switch green and green with red stripe? Finally, when I turn the key on the switch, which is dangling down right now, the engine fires, but when I turn lose of the key, the engine quits. Could this be because the switch is not grounded to the dash? The resister wire is brand new. Please help
A year has passed. Did you resolve your wiring issue ?
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:04 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0
Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.